Discussion in 'The Main Board' started by hypnos, Apr 6, 2019.
Ohhhh. Huh, just not expensive ones? More junk silver is that what you prefer?
hypnos, what you and Sally are doing is what I consider the 'second job' asset investment. The crypto, industrial metals and other materials, Wall Street involved products, and similar currently doable financial transactions are a good way to make money now to obtain other types of preps. My preferred plan is the diversified set of financial assets I listed in the article. If the economy does not crash or go away, then I will have all the advantages of our current financial system working for me. Having the farm and income producing property is the same. They will make FRNs for me to use for additional extensive prep acquisitions. The PMs will just be sitting there, as a hedge, store of wealth, re-start assets, get-out-of-jail tool, and the like. They will not make me any additional FRNs as I do not intend to sell the PMs for FRNs. They are for use when nothing else will accomplish what I need done. That is not likely to be during any major event, only afterward during the recovery phase. Except, of course, for the get-out-of-jail aspect that may be necessary during the initial and early stages of a disaster to buy my way out of trouble in some form.
Now, if the financial systems go down or disappear, pretty much all of what I would have tied up in that system (approximately 33%, like the other two parts each) ceases to exist. (There will likely be a couple of exceptions, but I do not count on them in any way.) That is why the other two parts of the diversification plan would be in place. During and for a long time after the event takes place, the real estate portion of the three-part plan would be keeping me going. Feeding me, protecting me, helping me help others that will be assets in the recovery, and so on. The survival aspects. And the income-producing real estate, other than the farm(s), such as the rental quadraplexes, would have leases or other contractual arrangements that have provisions in them from the start so alternative forms of payment would be available and kick in under specific circumstances.
I am not going to be taking FRNs during a financial crisis. Some canned goods, or much more likely, some labor or service which the tenant can provide me that will be useful to me, will be accepted as lease payments. And that would all be pre-arranged, and agreed to by the tenant before anything is signed or any handshake agreements made. I would be willing to enforce the agreement, too. Just like any place where I would plan to take up residence, any property that had a tenant would have provision designed into the structure that would allow me to evict, with prejudice if necessary, any tenant that refused to honor the agreement, with little or no risk to me or anyone associated with me.
Eventually, when the recovery began, I would have the most likely currencies that would be used to make medium to large transactions during that phase. From quality food, to fuels, to luxury items, and, of course, PMs as well as some useful commercial and industrial items.
Where palladium, platinum, and rhodium are pretty much only useful and have major value is when high tech industries are in operation. If they are not, then those metals will not have any real value until the recovery is far advanced. I do think that some forms of those three metals would be very good for very, very, long term planning. Upwards of at least fify and more likely one-hundred-years or more after the event, when industry will again need those metals to create similar items to what they are now used for, and probably some new ones.
I would add titanium to that list, as well as several other metals, minerals, and other raw materials. But not for use within my lifetime, and likely not for a couple more generations.
The other 'metals' that I consider 'semi-precious' and likely to be useful, necessary, and wanted during the perios immediately after an event, even during the time before the recovery actually begins, are:
1. Babbitt (1-kilo blocks)
2. Lead (shot, bullets, ingots, sheets)
3. Copper (wire/pipe/tubing/fittings, sheet, ingots) (ingots way down on the list, but useful for some types of castings)
4. Steel (angles/bars/beams mild & hard)
5. Brass (cartridge casings, shell casings, brazing rod, sheet, tubing, ingots)
6. Solders (regular, cored, silver)
7. Welding rod (6011 and/or 7018 1/8”)
8. Fluxes (for brazing/soldering/welding)
9. Metal fasteners (nails, screws, bolts, nuts, washers, etc.)
10. Aluminum (sheets, rods, bars, ingots)(ingots way down the list, but useful for some types of castings)
11. Tin (ingots)
12. Zinc (ingots)
I intend to be in a position to 'mine' many other bulk type raw materials from the 'ruins' after the great die-off occurs and it will be doable without so much risk. Only some items would I risk going after during or after the even when there would still be highly dangerous groups and individuals running free. There will all forms of steel available, as well as various forms of wood and timber, certain types of wire, and many other things that will be needed for larger scale projects than the items on my list would be used for.
Here are some of my thoughts on acquiring useful items, such as the aforementioned steel and wood/timber items for larger scale projects.
My thoughts on post-disaster and PAW salvage
Many people will immediately proclaim that anything done during and after a major disaster of essentially any type that involves taking anything from any place that is not your own property is looting. In many situations they will be right by just about any definition of the word.
However, there are many other words that can be used in those situations that will apply, based on how they are defined. Sometimes people have their own definitions of words, including looting. Looting to many is any act of taking something that does not officially belong to you. Currently, pretty much everything does belong to someone. So, taking it from them without permission would be stealing. Or, in a disaster situation, looting.
I believe ownership is the key factor in the use of words about taking things that do not belong to the person taking them. As in a post disaster situation or a full post-apocalyptic world situation, what about things that really no longer have an owner.
The original owner is now dead, or long gone and never coming back. No one with familial or business ties with them is still around. That item, essentially, no longer has an owner. So how can taking it be considered looting? The only way, as I see it, is if a higher authority lays claim to everything that no longer has an owner that could reasonably be expected to be in a position to ever lay claim on the item.
Say, the town council, or the county, or the state, or the federal government, or the National Guard, or simply a Warlord that says so. Those entities would consider anyone besides themselves or their agents that took anything from what they consider their jurisdiction or territory a looter. But, in reality, do they have any more real of an authority than a given individual.
That debate will probably never be settled, though it will come up constantly before, during, and after any and all situations where it would apply. So, as always, I am going to provide my own definitions and justifications for what I think I would do in post disaster situations and a post apocalyptic world in terms of taking items that I do not own that I might find or run across.
So, the definitions:
1) Looting: Pretty much what I said above. Taking something during and after a disaster or in a PAW that does still have an owner, even may not be at hand. Primarily for the benefit of the person taking the item(s).
2) Scavenging: Taking items with no discernable or likely owner that are simply found while in an area. Some minor searching, but not really organized. Primarily for the benefit of the person(s) taking the item(s), and any group they are with.
3) Recovery: A purposeful action of going after highly useful and needed specific items known to not have an owner, from an area where the items are at risk of destruction, damage, or of being taken by others that are likely to use them in harmful ways. Often for the benefit of the person(s) taking the item(s), but also likely to be done for the benefit of a larger group and community.
4) Salvaging: A purposeful action of seeking out and taking generally useful items in areas where there are no owners around. Often for the benefit of the person(s) taking the item(s), but also likely to be done for the benefit of a larger group and community.
5) Mining: A purposeful action of going into an area where there are likely items with no owners, and taking anything and everything that might have a use at some point in time in a post disaster environment or PAW. Often for the benefit of the person(s) taking the item(s), but also likely to be done for the benefit of a larger group and community.
With those definitions in mind, here are my thoughts on what I believe I would do and consider acceptable if I ever wind up in a situation where a disaster has occurred, and people in an area have died or left the area abandoning completely everything they did not take with them with no intent of returning for any of it, or assigning ownership of any of it to someone else.
Once things were settled down, and safe enough to be out and about, for at least a few hours at a time, I believe I would go on a recovery expedition to obtain items that could be critical to survival in the future for myself and for others. Either for use, or in some cases to keep them out of the hands of people that would be likely to harm me or others.
Things such as medical equipment and supplies, for the first reason, and weapons and ammunition for the second. Additional items I would be going after are things that have limited shelf-life and will be wasted if not recovered and used within their useful lifespan. Fuel being a good example, and many foods being another. Everything recovered would be documented. Efforts to document the location and condition of other items in the area will be taken.
Once those very important essentials are taken care of, and time and circumstances permit, salvage trips would be undertaken to obtain useful items for myself and for those with whom I am affiliated and associated, probably with their assistance. The documentation done during the early recovery efforts will be used, as well as thorough searches undertaken to find useful items. Again, everything would be documented, as well as notations of possible assets that might justify mining the area in the future.
Without violating operation security and safety, information would be left at the locations where items were taken, in case any of the items did turn out to have a legitimate owner. If contacted by an owner, every effort would be made to return the item, or compensate the owner for the item.
As long as there are items that might be used to aid in the recovery and rebuilding of the community, the recovery, salvage, and mining operations would continue to gain possession and control of items that would otherwise go to waste, or be taken and used against the community, unless the items were safe where they were. And again, everything would be documented, to allow any owners to be compensated, and to simply establish a historical record of the times.
That would be the process. Some of the places that would be of initial interest would be (as listed in the article) restaurants, taverns/bars, schools, hospitals, libraries, office buildings, factories, and warehouses. For the reasons given in the article, but also for several more in each case, primarily in the later stages, though given opportunity and time, some of the additional items would also be taken.
Lightbulbs, for instance. Any and all writing instruments and useable paper. Computer and communications equipment. All for use in the future.
If there were some immediate needs above and beyond the things listed in the article, items such as doors and even their frames. Plumbing items. Some types of furniture. Shelving and storage gear.
I would add to the list in the article several things for the initial trips.
1) Medical clinics for the same reasons as the hospitals.
2) Medical equipment businesses.
3) Office supply stores: many have food items, maintenance and cleaning items, bottled water, storage items, and quite a few other immediately useful items in addition to the ‘office’ items.
4) Hardware stores. Too many items to list of things that will be needed.
5) Welding supply stores. Same as hardware stores.
6) Specialty stores such as Lowes, Home Depot, Best Buy, Barnes & Noble, Hobby Lobby/Michaels, Baby-R-Us, Farm & Ranch stores. All have items that will be needed, some of them relatively soon, others later on.
7) Truck stops. Probably not for fuel initially, as there will be a great deal of competition for it, which will probably prove dangerous. But there are plenty of other things that will be useful, from lubricants to communications gear, to tools and hardware.
8) Garages and Auto Parts stores. Tools and parts galore.
9) Marinas and water sports stores. Any number of useful items, with fuel treatment items among them.
10) Sporting goods stores. A huge number of useful items. And some will have weapons and ammunition.
11) Gun stores. Pretty obvious.
And a few that will be highly controversial. Use your own judgement, based on your morals and beliefs, on whether you will take anything from the locations on this list:
1) Coin shops and any stores that deal in precious metals in coin or any other form.
2) Jewelry stores and any stores that deal in gemstones and jewelry making supplies.
3) Government facilities, primarily police stations and National Guard locations, and possibly fire department facilities and city/county/state maintenance facilities.
Now, I debated on where to put Pawn Shops. They will be a great resource, if abandoned, and even if heavily picked over. The hesitation is the same as the first two locations in the list just above. Precious metals and jewelry. Do you or do you not. And they often have weapons, though little ammunition. But lots of tools and usually some useful communications gear. Take what you are comfortable with if the situation arises, and leave what you are not comfortable with.
And there are many more that will be specific to an area, and places that will have items that apply to specific situations that different preppers will have.
Now, some general thoughts on the whole process.
1) Unless there is a very specific reason to go alone, do not.
2) Scout any area you think might have items you want or could use.
3) Make a plan based on the scouting information.
4) Always be ready to defend yourself getting to a location, during the operation, and when going home. Both convoy defense, group defense, and individual defense.
5) Best to have guards posted, including an overwatch.
6) Have what is required to get things back to where you want them to be.
7) Consider using staging areas if large areas are being worked.
8) Be prepared for confrontations and have a plan on how to deal with them.
9) Be prepared to leave an area immediately if it becomes obvious that others have a claim on the items, legitimate or not.
10) Be extremely thorough.
11) Depending on the actual scenario, be aware of any environmental dangers, such as radiation; lingering chemicals or biological elements whether military or simply leaks; damaged buildings; falling hazards; overhead hazards; enclosed space dangers; etc.
12) Have the tools and other equipment to safe get what you want. Do not take risks that could get you or anyone hurt during any recovery effort. If you cannot get something safely with what you have with you, go get it first, and then make the effort.
And, based on the last item in the list, here are some Recovery, Salvage, & Resource Mining tool ideas:
Cold Steel Oda sheath knife
Leatherman Surge multi-tool w/bits
Channel Lock 88 rescue tool w/pliers & wire cutter
Multi-tip screw driver
Set of hand tools
8” Bastard cut File
Stanley 12” Wonder bar
Stanley Entry tool 18”
Stanley Entry tool 30”
42” bolt cutters w/extra cutting heads
Cold Steel Special Forces e-tool
Duraworx mini-planting too (a mini pick ax)
Blazer PB 207 2500 degree micro torch
Chain link fence climbing steps
Tyrepliers to pull tires off rims so you don’t have to carry the entire thing
Lkgoodwin PE2 6 ton chain fall w/20' lift
Lkgoodwin PE2 1 1/2 ton chain fall w/20' lift
Lkgoodwin GT-2000-65 cable come along w/65' pull
7/16” x 100 braided nylon rope
5/16” x 50 braided nylon rope
12’ sling rope w/carabiners each end
Wespur light block and tackle
Wespur heavy block and tackle
Keeper 02933 3" x 30' recovery strap
Stake down type winch anchor
100' 3/8" extension cable
Set clevis', shackles, winch anchors, snatch blocks, tie-offs, etc
Hi-Lift First Responder Jack w/Jack-Mate
30" D-handle round point shovel
48" straight handle round point shovel
8# sledge fiberglass handle sledge
16# double jack
Iltis Oxhead double bit felling axe
Bauer 12" x 8' aluminum 28# scaffold plank
Bauer 24" x 8' aluminum 41# scaffold plank
12-16-168-05 14'x16"x6.25" 12K cap 115# weight bridging ramp
Little Giant 21626 13'-23' multi purpose ladder w/levelers 71#
Husky 395XPW 36" chainsaw
Case, protective gear, spare parts
Multi-tool for chainsaws
Concrete/steel cutting engine powered saw
Oxy/acetylene torch kit
Oxy/acetylene 100' automatic hose reel
Oxy/acetylene portable tank & carrier 20cf oxy/10cf acetylene tanks
Complete thermal Lance set w/back pack
Rapid Fire thermal rod starting cartridges
3/8” x 18” 25# box thermal rods
3/8” x 46” 25# box thermal rods
Porta-power hydraulic system
Portable air compressor (or onboard air in the vehicle)
Set of air powered tools
Portable hydraulic pump & tank (or onboard hydraulics in the vehicle)
Set of hydraulic powered tools
Portable tripod hoist
And, if you really want to do some serious recovery, salvage, and mining work, a good PAWV (Post Apocalyptic World Vehicle) set up for such things, as well as other things, might just be useful. If anyone is interested I will post up my Rufus list. (Rufus being the name I have given a theoretical PAWV)
Much of the above is well beyond the thread topic, and I am not intending to divert the thread, I just wanted to help explain the choices I have made that do pertain to the thread.
It is all Just my opinion.
Oh, I just cant afford them.
Except Platinum as thats a different kind of investment.
I learned that from the old Polish neighbour I had the privilege to know when I was a child. She not only passed on her Sauerkraut recipe (and a host of others) but she told us stories of how her family survived during the German occupation of Poland. When money was short, they would barter with not just jewellery, but their skills and things that could be made. What sticks with me was the team spirit that pervaded her stories. When things were really tough, several families would pool their resources to make and cook a meal, clothing would be swapped around as children grew and were born, celebrations were extended from just the family to whole communities. She often said, despite the privations, life went on and was celecrated like never before.
I would much rather place my faith in genuine tried and tested methods of prepping and restoring civilisation than any dour fiction.
Neither can i, but I'm gonna buy some anyway.
Very, very organized. . Great article.
I have similar thoughts on salvage, etc. Although my means to do it is a little less gear heavy. And my targets are a little different if i decided it was time to do it.
I do at least a light infrastructure audit in every city i go to. Major colleges and universities are actually excellent places for locating fuel and tools that may not be picked as clean as other locations. Every one i have seen have massive industrial kitchens, with bulk goods, and usually very large maintenance shops with fuel tanks and nearly every tool you can think of. And also, tends to be the location of radios, and the keys and locksmithing supplies for the entire building. Many colleges also have solar panels, and advanced medical supplies.
Second is industrial facilities. For all the same reasons.
My lock pick set(s)
A 12 gauge shotgun
A roll of carpet (for barbed wire fence)
A set of heavy wire dikes
A set of folding bolt cutters
A ramset (powder actuated nail gun, excellent for destroying lock shackles, and door locks, quieter and more tidy than the 12 gauge)
Tow straps, and a come along.
A sledge hammer.
I can make or find a ladder, not usually any problem. I can make or produce hoists or other extraction devices with found items, and do not need to carry all the extras.
Excellent hypnos! I like those ideas.
I have not posted enough lists here to get around to posting my standard list explanation.
Almost all of my lists are what I consider pick & choose lists, options lists, examples lists, and you-might-think-about-something-like-this lists. They are very seldom lists of what I think every prepper should have. Simply ideas to get each individual prepper to think about what their needs might be in the situation or similar situations. I have been told many, many times, about many of my lists, "I never thought about that. That would apply to me, for sure, but 'this', 'this', and 'this' do not. That one thing, though, would definitely come in handy around here."
Which is exactly what I am aiming for. Options. Options that people can select or get them thinking about something similar. I simply have the experience and have done so much research over the last 50 years that I have run across so many things that younger people and people that have not had my opportunities have never seen or even heard about. Things that might not be happening right now, but have in the past and certainly could again in the future.
Of that list, I do not have even one-fourth of it available at the moment, but could still be successful. And, like you, I know how to acquire many of the items, make many of them, or can get around not having them even though it would take more time and effort. It is primarily the knowledge that such things exist that can be a huge force multiplier that helps supply the incentive to go ahead and do something now knowing of ways that it can be accomplished, either with a listed item or a substitute, alternative, or using a different approach.
Just my opinion.
Agreed! Yes, you definitely wouldn't need to carry everything on your list, but everything could have a use at some point. Nothing wrong with having more gear than you need!
I forgot to mention security bits for drills and screw drivers, a very handy thing indeed! Infact they still retain the function of working with standard fasteners, but there really isn't a substitute when you encounter the security versions of those fasteners. Excellent dual purpose.
I personally like to find the minimalist approach to gear, as much as i can, simply because doing more with less equipment means more money and space for consumable items, like the 3Bs.
I definitely don't think you would be doing yourself wrong purchasing anything you've mentioned on any list you've posted, just that i like the max function in the smallest possible package. That's all i was really saying.
Thread drift welcome by the way! I am probably the most guilty of it compared to anyone on the forum.
Another resource i would at least consider are Zoology centers, and veterinary clinics, with a zoo being my first choice. They have loads of very advanced medicines, and medical supplies and possibly live animals of many different species. (Watch out for polar bears...)