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3 minutes to midnight: a holistic approach to a firearm build and training concept.

Discussion in 'The Main Board' started by hypnos, Apr 20, 2019.

  1. hypnos

    hypnos Talkative Member

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    You may be familiar with the doomsday clock, if not, the basic premise is that we are a certain amount of time away from a global catastrophe. For several years now, about three minutes to complete global annihilation. Yes we gain some time and lose some time, but we typically ride that 3 minutes between life and death for our entire planet.

    When and if it happens, we don't know for sure exactly. We don't know where, or what. And if it does happen we may never know why. What is clear, with so much uncertainty and obscurity nearing total global darkness is the need for a weapon and training methodology that will provide for our defense needs whatever they happen to be.

    In such a scenario, we should probably assume the worst. We are alone, in a violent and unforgiving place and need to cover allot of ground rapidly. This may mean abandoning and transitioning to multiple types of transport when one fails, or becomes inadequate due to road conditions, horde mentality, or changes in terrain.

    This may also mean covering a multitude of transitions, be they urban environments, industrial, indoor and outdoor, wooded or open. And at all hours, because we don't know if the situation will dictate night or day travel for safety reasons.

    We will quite possibly also need to carry allot of ammunition.

    A PDW, or personal defense weapon may be the exact niche for this type of situation. And this is how I would approach this specific firearm.

    8in-300blk-gen2-complete-uppers.jpg

    Basing much on the number " 3" i am considering beginning the build with an Aero precision 8 inch .300 AAC upper reciever with an adjustable bolt carrier group. (A barrel at or under 300mm in length or roughly 10")

    The 300AAC is optimized for this barrel length, even with a 8" suppressor, the full barrel length won't be much over 16" , the 300AAC with supersonic ammo has ballistics nearly identical to the 30-30, or 7.62x39mm AK/AKM,
    And with subsonic ammo, ballistics very similar to .45 ACP.
    This makes the weapon very flexible for hunting applications, shooting through barriers, and use as a general purpose cartridge.

    IMACS-ARL.jpg

    At the muzzle end, is an IMACS muzzle adapter, to allow installation of solvent traps without being forced to remove your muzzle device.

    AA_SLINGDING2A.jpg while it is illegal to install a vertical grip on your rifle, the TMACS, inc. "Sling ding" can be used as a grip, monopod, or barrier rest.

    opplanet-sb-tactical-sbpdw-pistol-stabilizing-brace-for-mil-spec-ars-main.jpg The SB tactical PDW brace uses a full sized buffer tube, and retains all the parts commonality of the standard article unlike some other systems.

    -drop-in-binar.jpg the fostech "echo 2" is a full auto simulation device still available for purchase. Unlike the first version, it allows you to use a standard carrier instead of the modified fostech one.

    opplanet-steiner-m332-prism-sight-3x32-reticle-5-56-black-8788-5-56-st-rs-m332r-8788-5-56-v3.jpg a high quality prismatic sight such as this STEINER 3x illuminated optic would be a good choice. Allowing the user to engage targets accurately at distances up to roughly 300 meters. If the battery fails, prismatic sights have etched reticles not dependent on batteries.

    Of course a set of back up sights, flashlight and a few other things may be required to tailor it to the individual.

    My arbitrary criteria:

    Weighing less than 3KG (6.5 pounds)
    Has a barrel under 300mm (10")
    Can print a group size of 3" at 100 meters or better with good ammunition (aero precision uses the excellent ballistic advantage barrels) for reliable accuracy on head sized targets or even brain stem shots at 0-100 meters. And minute of man accuracy to 300 meters. (Roughly 9" circle at that distance)

    It feeds from a 30 round standard magazine. And it would not be out of the question to carry ten magazines for a total of a 300 round loadout.

    The 3 minute to midnight drill.

    From a distance of 3 meters, fire 3 rounds on 3 targets in a tactical sequence from the standing position.

    Next run back 30 meters, fire three rounds on each target for a total of three rounds from the kneeling position.

    Next run back 100 meters, fire 3 rounds on three targets from the sitting position.

    Finally run back 300 yards/meters and fire 3 rounds on 3 targets from the prone position, for a total of 30 rounds.

    To score yourself try to complete the drill as fast as possible, every round on target whether lethal or not counts, for each hit subtract 1 second. For every miss add a second, to/ from your overall time and try to beat 3 minutes.

    Reload from the prone and repeat the drill advancing.

    This may seem like a silly drill, but, you can mix it up with a few things to make it more challenging and interesting. You can change at what point to fire only 3 rounds, on three targets, 3 on one target etc.

    Reduce the capacity of your magazines -forcing you to reload while on the move, or while engaging targets.

    Insert a few dummy rounds for malfunction clearance.

    Modify or add cover for shooting around barriers, right or left handed.

    When you retreat and turn to fire on your first run , you can simulate a "bill drill" or "el presidente"

    When advancing on your second run, you can turn periodically and walk backwards to make sure no one is behind you.

    You can add a vehicle to the mix, and simulate fighting your way to it. I.e. do the first course of fire from short range, then run to the 30 where your vehicle is parked, retrieve your vest, or other piece of kit, drive, etc.

    Sorry if i this is a repost! :)
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2019
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  2. Jerry D Young

    Jerry D Young Active Member

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    I like it!

    Of course, I do have my own ideas as to what I would carry...

    If I could get one, I would get the CBJ MS PDW: http://www.cbjtech.com/small-arms/ using the CBJ 6.5mm x 25mm family of ammunition: http://www.cbjtech.com/ammunition/6-5x25-cbj/
    (Check the CBJ .300 Blackout and CBJ 7.62x51 on their ammunition page, too.)

    Select fire, telescoping stock, up to 100-round drum.

    Now, if I had to do it without importing something like the CBJ MS PDW, I would probably build my own. Basically a version of the HK-51 idea, which is an HK-91 based PDW. HK never made one, but people have been converting HK-91s and PTR-91s into HK-51 versions for a long time.

    I would start with a PTR 105 7.62 x 51 PDW.
    Install a port buffer.
    Remove the 8.5" barrel and install a 10" integrally suppressed barrel.
    Modify magazine release to paddle type.
    Add a registered four-position trigger pack and sear (Safe, single, 3-round burst, full auto)
    Add a Picatinny rail front stock.
    Remove the butt cap and install the HK telescoping stock.
    Add an ATN THOR-HD 640 1.5-15x digital thermal day/night scope on QD see-through mount.
    Add an American Specialty Ammo ST-9 Havoc 37mm side-loading launcher on bottom rail.
    Plenty of 20-round magazines
    Plenty of X-Products 50-round drum magazines

    Just my opinion.
     
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  3. hypnos

    hypnos Talkative Member

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    The CBJ is very interesting. And your SCAR or HK-51 picks are also very valid and interesting, but i intend to own one of these, and not years from now. :).

    There are fascinating firearms that would be incredible, and probably much better for the scenario. I am shooting for as much capability for the minimum price and legal red tape possible, making this project one that a prepper on nearly any budget could put together.

    Sure, technically speaking you can make a compelling argument about what weapon edges out ahead on paper, but, we are able to take off the shelf components and accessories and produce a weapon that is legally a razor edge shy of being defined as:
    1-Select fire.
    2-short barreled rifle
    3-suppressed/ suppressor ready
    4- ballistically Similar to the AK-47
    5- Fully accessorized, still lighter than a hk 91 variant with no accessories. And higher standard capacity.

    50 and 100 round drums are nifty, i like them and i think they have a place. But, in my Opinion, not something i want to carry or insert into my rifle when i carry it and shoot it. I would like them for defending my home or property, or if i was going to be the one laying down suppressive fire, but other than those roles i don't see them being nessicary for me. You of course may be different.

    This is basically a truck gun. It can be carried anywhere you happen to go, if i could afford a SCAR, HK51 i would not put it behind or under my truck seat.

    The other component is the drill, to take any advantage of a firearm you choose to own and intend to use requires the physical athleticism to use it. I will already be carrying my stocked bug out bag, I definitely don't want to carry a bunch of drum mags full of .308 and THOR weapon sight. That would be awesome to have at home, but i would hate to have that in my 200 degree truck, day in and day out. Hahaha. Thanks for the opinion Jerry. I'd love to shoot the CBJ.
     
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  4. hypnos

    hypnos Talkative Member

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    By the way, you seem to like the integral suppressor idea allot. And mention it often.
    A integral suppressor has holes drilled in the barrel , reducing standard full velocity ammo to subsonic levels on typical HK designs like the MP5 SD. That doesn't make sense to me, your .308 rifle is now only shooting rounds twice as large and twice as expensive as .300 blackout, but not twice as effective. Infact the largest grain weight i have seen is 220grains for most off the shelf .308. So explain to me, if you want a rifle that sends 30 caliber bullets down range at the same speed as .300AAC , why do it in a more expensive, larger, heavier, and more wasteful platform? Sorry Jerry, i still don't get it.

    I understand a short barreled. 308. I don't understand a short barreled. 308 that can't shoot supersonic when you want it to. The integral can makes no sense to me whatsoever.
     
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  5. hypnos

    hypnos Talkative Member

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  6. hypnos

    hypnos Talkative Member

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    While barrels 2 inches shorter actually send some weights of projectiles down range faster than the .308 in 300AAC clamberings. downloadfile.jpg
     
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  7. hypnos

    hypnos Talkative Member

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    Subsonic is a different story completely, both must be below the transonic threshold for maximum performance, and the point across the board becomes relatively mute. Other than the .300 AAC being cheaper, lighter, and probably more practical if you have the ammunition on hand before a nightmare scenario and don't have to scrounge.
     
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  8. hypnos

    hypnos Talkative Member

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    300AAC was designed specifically for short barrels, the .308 Winchester was not. It may eek out the slightest edge of performance over 300 AAC, but is that worth carrying less ammo, in a larger, and harder to control rifle? I don't think anyone shot by either would know the difference.
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2019
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  9. Jerry D Young

    Jerry D Young Active Member

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    You could be correct, hypnos. I think the velocity out of an unsuppressed 10" barrel is closer to 2400fps with a couple of different types of ammunition. And I am not 100% sure that the integrally suppressed barrel would drop it all that much since the gasses being vented are essentially excess gasses that would not be used to increase the velocity of the bullet in that short of a barrel anyway. I could be wrong about that, however, not being a ballistic engineer.

    It would take full power ammunition, though it would be louder than when using subsonic. I will still take 2,000+fps at 22-24% sound reduction in a retracted stock length of 25" and empty weight (w/o optic, w/empty 20-round magazine) of 7lb and slightly slower drill times as outlined in the OP for the scenario listed:

    When and if it happens, we don't know for sure exactly. We don't know where, or what. And if it does happen we may never know why. What is clear, with so much uncertainty and obscurity nearing total global darkness is the need for a weapon and training methodology that will provide for our defense needs whatever they happen to be.

    In such a scenario, we should probably assume the worst. We are alone, in a violent and unforgiving place and need to cover allot of ground rapidly. This may mean abandoning and transitioning to multiple types of transport when one fails, or becomes inadequate due to road conditions, horde mentality, or changes in terrain.

    This may also mean covering a multitude of transitions, be they urban environments, industrial, indoor and outdoor, wooded or open. And at all hours, because we don't know if the situation will dictate night or day travel for safety reasons.

    We will quite possibly also need to carry allot of ammunition.


    The FN SCAR in .308, since it has a quick change barrel would be a better choice probably, since any of the barrels could be used when the integrally suppressed 10" barrel was not needed. That is the feature lacking in the HK G3 platform.

    In terms of the options list, and it is an options list except for the barrel, only those components necessary would need to be installed at any given time for a given mission within the scenario. I would not have to have the optic installed, nor the 37mm launcher installed, nor use 50-round drums all the time. The optic and launcher are on QD Picatinny mounts so can be removed or installed in the matter of a few seconds. But with those three options, I would have a weapon system that would serve for most of the requirements in the stated scenario, except for longer range engagements. And that applies across the board for any platform meeting or coming close to the OP requirements.

    At least, that is my opinion. I am certainly not going to say it is the best choice overall, and definitely not the only good choice. My preference would be the CBJ MS, followed by a SCAR-H set up similar to the HK-51SD.

    Hopefully the discussion can generate ideas that others find useful for their particular take on the OP.

    Just my opinion.
     
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  10. Atlas

    Atlas Administrator Staff Member

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    .300blk is a .308 bullet in a .223 Rem case, isn't it?
     
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  11. hypnos

    hypnos Talkative Member

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    It can be, same diameter but typically supports heavier bullets for subs and lighter bullets for super sonics
     
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  12. hypnos

    hypnos Talkative Member

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    It is very close to 7.62x39 or 30/30 ballisticly.
     
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  13. Atlas

    Atlas Administrator Staff Member

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    One advantage the .308 win might have over .300 blk is price. Main disadvantage is weight.

    I prefer the .300blk but Jerry's HK would be pretty interesting to give a go.
     
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  14. Atlas

    Atlas Administrator Staff Member

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  15. hypnos

    hypnos Talkative Member

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    The price for ammo isn't very different from what I've seen, if you buy per box. Usually the .300aac is cheaper. But no one is selling 1,000 round bulk packs of .300 aac.

    However, you can make .300 aac with .223 brass, and it will use less and cheaper powders (even pistol powder) and heavy cast bullets for subs. The largest 300 aac bullet mold is the best to have if you can only buy one, you can simply cut of some of the back portions gas checks for a lighter bullet. (So i have been told, i haven't tried it)
     
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  16. Atlas

    Atlas Administrator Staff Member

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    Oh boy, going down the rabbit hole now....
     
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  17. hypnos

    hypnos Talkative Member

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    I think the .308 with the 12.5" barrel would be pretty awesome. But not suppressed or in full auto, hahahaha. Unless i was going for self defense and goose hunting all at the same time. Side by side 300AAC vs .308 in full auto is pretty much a no contest on the controllable scale. And probably much less noise suppressed regardless of suppressor brand, length or type all things being equal other than caliber. Granted, full auto has pretty limited utility.
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2019
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  18. Jerry D Young

    Jerry D Young Active Member

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    Aw man, Atlas! That SWS CZ Scorpion Evo model is sweet! If I could get a supply of the CBJ 6.5mm x 25mm ammunition for it and an Evo barrel chambered for it I would be quite happy. The CBJ round is designed to be used in 9mmP weapons with a barrel change. Same magazines.

    Even in semi-auto only I would take one. No problem to add a crank to it for bipod use. It would easily be a 400-yard gun on a bipod with that ammunition.

    I used a crank on my Ruger 10/22 in the late seventies/early eighties with great success. Ramline 25-round magazines fed quality ammunition at full speed with only the occasional failure. I had the crank on the left side instead of the right, so I could keep the buttstock tight against my shoulder. I could tear up Jack at 100-yards with that thing. Even at 200-yards it would keep heads down.

    And push come to shove, in a true PAW situation, I would have no problem with creating a 5v or 12v crank for it and convert it to an electronic trigger.

    You guys keep finding stuff for me to spend money on. I have not really looked at the newest crop of weapons and weapons makers in a long time. Looks like I really need to research what is available now.

    Just my opinion.
     
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  19. hypnos

    hypnos Talkative Member

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    G
    No one can keep track, so much stuff coming out, day in and day out. :)

    But of course I'll give you my .02 $.
    The Cmmg .22 conversion for AR rifles is compatible with the binary trigger.;)
     
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  20. hypnos

    hypnos Talkative Member

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    Whaddya say fellers..."ultimate sooper dooper survival .22LR" build thread???? @Atlas @Jerry D Young
     
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